Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue

Problem: when arrowing through the list of servers, it is no longer possible to press right arrow, and move over in the table to hear other aspects of that server, such as the delay time, location, etc.

In version 3.8 (accessible, when we arrow to a user name, and then ask Windows for the UIA object with focus, we obtain the object that contains the server name as the .name field.
Pressing right arrow, focus moves to the next UIA object, which contains the response time.

However, in 3.9, also position on a server name in the list, what we get when we ask for the UIA object with focus is actually the parent of that server name object, and seems to relate more to the list in general. Focus is not reported as being on that particular server.
Pressing right arrow, focus does not appear to move at all.

So, the root problem is that we are now getting the wrong object, and that object does not change as you arrow left and right.

@chigkim

Thanks for your report. I think @chigkim should be able to help out with accessibility related problems.

@ann0see

It looks like QT6 fixed so that VoiceOver on Mac now can at least navigate QTreeWidgetItems in QT6 (not each column though), but maybe it broke in windows...
I'm not sure what we can do until QT fixes QTreeWidgetItems?

As a futile attempt, I tried to set accessible name before the line "// update number of clients text" in connectdlg.cpp.
lvwServers -> itemWidget ( pCurListViewItem, 1 ) -> setAccessibleName ( pCurListViewItem -> text ( 1 ) );
However, I get zsh segmentation fault even before GUI opens.
On my accessible build on Mac, I got around it by making each column as a QPushButton, but this of course changes UI.

for ( int i = 0; i < lvwServers->columnCount(); i++ )
{
	lvwServers->setItemWidget ( pNewListViewItem, i, new QPushButton ( pNewListViewItem->text ( i ) ) );
}

@ann0see, do you have any suggestion?

Hi, I am on Windows and wanted to say thanks for looking at it, as someone who is blind it’s great to have a program we can use to jam with others From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 11:33 AM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Author ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) It looks like QT6 fixed so that VoiceOver on Mac now can at least navigate QTreeWidgetItems in QT6 (not each column though), but maybe it broke in windows... I'm not sure what we can do until QT fixes QTreeWidgetItems? As a futile attempt, I tried to set accessible name before the line "// update number of clients text" in connectdlg.cpp. lvwServers -> itemWidget ( pCurListViewItem, 1 ) -> setAccessibleName ( pCurListViewItem -> text ( 1 ) ); However, I get zsh segmentation fault even before GUI opens. On my accessible build on Mac, I got around it by making each column as a QPushButton, but this of course changes UI. for ( int i = 0; i < lvwServers->columnCount(); i++ ) { lvwServers->setItemWidget ( pNewListViewItem, i, new QPushButton ( pNewListViewItem->text ( i ) ) ); } @ann0see <https://github.com/ann0see> , do you have any suggestion? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNAR53SPNTJZAUOFBA3VZPND7ANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you authored the thread.Message ID: ***@***.***>

@BlindRyan

It looks like QT6 fixed so that VoiceOver on Mac now can at least navigate QTreeWidgetItems in QT6 (not each column though), but maybe it broke in windows...

The official 3.9.0 build is still on Qt 5.15 though, so this should not be a cause for regression, unless the accessibility Windows build has moved to Qt6 already?

On my accessible build on Mac, I got around it by making each column as a QPushButton, but this of course changes UI.

I haven't looked at it, but it sounds like this would not be something which could be integrated by default, but maybe it could be hidden under some general accessibility/screen-reader-friendlyness setting?

I'm still wondering where the change in behavior could be coming from as I don't see any relevant changes between 3.8.2 and 3.9.0 in the connect dialog at all.

@BlindRyan Can you confirm again that 3.8.2 still works as desired? Just to rule out any other, non-Jamulus-related changes on the Windows/screen reader side of things.

@chigkim Does your 3.9.0 accessibility build maybe lack some optimization which 3.8.2 had?

Hi, using Windows 11 with Jamulus 3.8.2 and my screen reader When I am on a server list I am able to use the right arrow to move to each of the items such as the milliseconds, the number of users and the country or region of the server On my windows ten computer with jamulus 3.9 I am using the same screen r3eader and when I bring up the exact same list of servers and try to use the right arrow key I get no information Looking at the jamulus help menu the about qt still says 5 on both 3.8.2 and 3.9 The screen reader I am using if it matters is called Jaws for Windows from www.freedomscientific.com <http://www.freedomscientific.com> From: Christian Hoffmann ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 12:40 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) It looks like QT6 fixed so that VoiceOver on Mac now can at least navigate QTreeWidgetItems in QT6 (not each column though), but maybe it broke in windows... The official 3.9.0 build is still on Qt 5.15 though, so this should not be a cause for regression, unless the accessibility Windows build has moved to Qt6 already? On my accessible build on Mac, I got around it by making each column as a QPushButton, but this of course changes UI. I haven't looked at it, but it sounds like this would not be something which could be integrated by default, but maybe it could be hidden under some general accessibility/screen-reader-friendlyness setting? I'm still wondering where the change in behavior could be coming from as I don't see any relevant changes between 3.8.2 and 3.9.0 in the connect dialog at all. @BlindRyan <https://github.com/BlindRyan> Can you confirm again that 3.8.2 still works as desired? Just to rule out any other, non-Jamulus-related changes on the Windows/screen reader side of things. @chigkim <https://github.com/chigkim> Does your 3.9.0 accessibility build maybe lack some optimization which 3.8.2 had? — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNCFEN63VARGVHVNUP3VZPU7HANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

@BlindRyan, just out of curiosity, have you tried with NVDA? Hmm, maybe then I'm wrong. Since I started building my accessible build with QT6, the server list became somewhat accessible on Mac without any modification, so I assume it was QT6. I stopped making a special accessible build for Windows, because all my accessibility fixes were merged into the main except for the server list on Mac side. That's why I still make accessible build for Mac. @hoffie, which QT version do 3.8 and 3.9 use? 5.15.x(?)

Jamulus 3.8.2 says about qt This program uses Qt version 5.15.2. Using NVDA the right arrow key does read out the milliseconds, the number of user as well as the region On Jamulus 3.9 and nvda nothing is spoken when the right arrow is used to move to those items From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 1:31 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) @BlindRyan, just out of curiosity, have you tried with NVDA? Hmm, maybe then I'm wrong. Since I started building my accessible build with QT6, the server list became somewhat accessible on Mac without any modification, so I assume it was QT6. I stopped making a special accessible build for Windows, because all my accessibility fixes were merged into the main except for the server list on Mac side. That's why I still make accessible build for Mac. @hoffie, which QT version do 3.8 and 3.9 use? 5.15.x(?) — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNBHE3VQSOFAOM67423VZP27BANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

I stopped making a special accessible build for Windows, because all my accessibility fixes were merged into the main

Ah, cool. How did you build your artifacts until 3.8.2? Was it using the same Github infrastructure as in our upstream project? If not, how? Maybe there is another difference.

which QT version do 3.8 and 3.9 use? 5.15.x(?)

Mac: 3.8: 5.15.2, 3.9: 6.3.1
Win: 3.8: 5.15.2, 3.9: 5.15.2

Doing a Windows Qt6 build should be simple though. We mainly didn't do it as support for "older" Windows versions is somewhat unclear, see #2300.

Hmm, I wonder what changed from 3.8 and 3.9 for Windows though since QT version stayed exactly the same. I've built my accessible build using my local machine and uploaded binary as attachment in Github release page.

Is that something you want me to download and try to install ? if so can you provide a direct link? From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 2:24 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) Hmm, I wonder what changed from 3.8 and 3.9 for Windows though since QT version stayed exactly the same. I've built my accessible build using my local machine and uploaded binary as attachment in Github release page. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNGM2QLHR7XIUXXDWDDVZQBIJANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

This is the message I received from a Jaws Screen reader user who might explain what is happening Here is what he wrote to me Problem: when arrowing through the list of servers, it is no longer possible to press right arrow, and move over in the table to hear other aspects of that server, such as the delay time, location, etc. In version 3.8 (accessible, when we arrow to a user name, and then ask Windows for the UIA object with focus, we obtain the object that contains the server name as the .name field. Pressing right arrow, focus moves to the next UIA object, which contains the response time. However, in 3.9, also position on a server name in the list, what we get when we ask for the UIA object with focus is actually the parent of that server name object, and seems to relate more to the list in general. Focus is not reported as being on that particular server. Pressing right arrow, focus does not appear to move at all. So, the root problem is that we are now getting the wrong object, and that object does not change as you arrow left and right. From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 2:24 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) Hmm, I wonder what changed from 3.8 and 3.9 for Windows though since QT version stayed exactly the same. I've built my accessible build using my local machine and uploaded binary as attachment in Github release page. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNGM2QLHR7XIUXXDWDDVZQBIJANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned. <https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AZGFSNFBE2GRAJSI7JIMB73VZQBIJA5CNFSM56TLOKXKYY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOJCGLKRI.gif> Message ID: ***@***.*** ***@***.***> >

I tested 3.9 with NVDA and Jaws.
Here's what you can do.
Server list is a tree view, so when you press right arrow, it expands the selected server, and reveals users on them, and when you press left arrow, it collapses and hide the users.
Things like ping time, number of users, location are not supposed to be keyboard focusable. At least I don't think.
However, in NVDA, once you select a server with up/down, you can use object navigation nvda+shift+right/left to see the number of user, ping time, location.
On Jaws, you can use touch cursor jaws+shift+; and press right/left arrow to review those information.
When you're done, go back to pc cursor by pressing jaws+; twice.
Hope that helps.

Hi yep I’ve done that with Jaws but didn’t need to before I updated to 3.9 and then went I went back to 3.8.2 things broke so for now I’ll use the touch cursor in Jaws, I really do appreciate your time looking at this and if I can make a request would it be possible to have a button we can use to toggle the chat functionality? At times the chat can get noisy and disruptive Thanks again From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 3:07 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) I tested 3.9 with NVDA and Jaws. Here's what you can do. Server list is a tree view, so when you press right arrow, it expands the selected server, and reveals users on them, and when you press left arrow, it collapses and hide the users. Things like ping time, number of users, location are not supposed to be keyboard focusable. At least I don't think. However, in NVDA, once you select a server with up/down, you can use object navigation nvda+shift+right/left to see the number of user, ping time, location. On Jaws, you can use touch cursor jaws+shift+; and press right/left arrow to review those information. When you're done, go back to pc cursor by pressing jaws+; twice. Hope that helps. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNELK2LTLZ652DH6XQTVZQGI7ANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

Hi using Jamulus 3.9 on Windows 11 and Jaws 2022 or NVDA when I am on the server llist I am able to use the right arrow to hear the ping and if I right arrow again the number of users and the region This doesn’t work on Windows ten And the above works without having to use the Jaws touch cursor or nvda object navigation on windows 11 From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 3:07 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) I tested 3.9 with NVDA and Jaws. Here's what you can do. Server list is a tree view, so when you press right arrow, it expands the selected server, and reveals users on them, and when you press left arrow, it collapses and hide the users. Things like ping time, number of users, location are not supposed to be keyboard focusable. At least I don't think. However, in NVDA, once you select a server with up/down, you can use object navigation nvda+shift+right/left to see the number of user, ping time, location. On Jaws, you can use touch cursor jaws+shift+; and press right/left arrow to review those information. When you're done, go back to pc cursor by pressing jaws+; twice. Hope that helps. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNELK2LTLZ652DH6XQTVZQGI7ANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

Hi never min my previous message now the arrow keys won’t work, is it possible to get this functionality to work as it is more efficient than turning on and off the touch cursor, and it did used to work, also any ability to have a option to toggle the chat off during a session From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 16, 2022 3:07 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) I tested 3.9 with NVDA and Jaws. Here's what you can do. Server list is a tree view, so when you press right arrow, it expands the selected server, and reveals users on them, and when you press left arrow, it collapses and hide the users. Things like ping time, number of users, location are not supposed to be keyboard focusable. At least I don't think. However, in NVDA, once you select a server with up/down, you can use object navigation nvda+shift+right/left to see the number of user, ping time, location. On Jaws, you can use touch cursor jaws+shift+; and press right/left arrow to review those information. When you're done, go back to pc cursor by pressing jaws+; twice. Hope that helps. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNELK2LTLZ652DH6XQTVZQGI7ANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

This never worked in main official build. It only worked in my accessible build. For main official build, there isn't really much we can do until QT does something about it. I'm also blind myself using screen readers, so I understand your issue. I guess I can start releasing special build for Windows again, but for official build, using object navigation or touch cursor is best solution we have for now.

Hopefully they will add some functionality but in the meantime I hired a Jaws scripter to write some scripts that work really well for Jaws in Jamulus Hee is what the scripts do currently Once in a server you can do the following Press control shift p to get your ping and delay Press control shift u for a list of users, if you press enter on a user you are taken directly to their level slider so you can adjust their levels, much more efficient than tabbing around especially if there are a lot of people Control shift o brings up a list of users you can solo Control shift m brings up a list of the users you can mute Alt 1 through 0 are for the chat, alt 1 is always the most recent chat From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 24, 2022 6:29 PM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) This never worked in main official build. It only worked in my accessible build. For main official build, there isn't really much we can do until QT does something about it. I'm also blind myself using screen readers, so I understand your issue. I guess I can start releasing special build for Windows again, but for official build, using object navigation or touch cursor is best solution we have for now. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNBUTIUKOEMWZYP3AFDV23D5TANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

@chigkim

This never worked in main official build. It only worked in my accessible build. For main official build, there isn't really much we can do until QT does something about it. I'm also blind myself using screen readers, so I understand your issue. I guess I can start releasing special build for Windows again, but for official build, using object navigation or touch cursor is best solution we have for now.

@chigkim Maybe we can add your workaround (I think it changed the UI) to the main build when we put it behind a setting?

@hoffie

@hoffie, we can technically do that, but it's not really an ideal solution either.
It'll break the ability to expand/collapse servers to reveal/hide users with arrows since right/left will navigate to name, ping time, number of users, location instead...
What's even better would be if there's an easy way to make pCurListViewItem as sub class of QWidget.
Then we can just make accessible name to include those infomations with setAccessibleName(...), and it won't change UI either.
I saw QTreeWidget has itemWidget() function that returns QWidget. I was hoping to be able to call setAccessibleName on the returned QWidget value.
However, lvwServers -> itemWidget ( pCurListViewItem, 1 ) -> setAccessibleName ( pCurListViewItem -> text ( 1 ) ); gives me zsh segmentation fault even before GUI opens.

We used to be able to use the right arrow to move all the way over to the region/country of the server and then left arrow back to the server name then press the tab key and get the list of users in that server so could we have one or the other? Either right arrow to expand the users in that server or a press of the tab key to drop us into the list of users? From: chigkim ***@***.***> Sent: August 25, 2022 9:18 AM To: jamulussoftware/jamulus ***@***.***> Cc: BlindRyan ***@***.***>; Mention ***@***.***> Subject: Re: [jamulussoftware/jamulus] Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue (Issue #2785) @hoffie <https://github.com/hoffie> , we can technically do that, but it's not really an ideal solution either. It'll break the ability to expand/collapse servers to reveal/hide users with arrows since right/left will navigate to name, ping time, number of users, location instead... What's even better would be if there's an easy way to make pCurListViewItem as sub class of QWidget. Then we can just make accessible name to include those infomations with setAccessibleName(...), and it won't change UI either. I saw QTreeWidget has itemWidget() function that returns QWidget. I was hoping to be able to call setAccessibleName on the returned QWidget value. However, lvwServers -> itemWidget ( pCurListViewItem, 1 ) -> setAccessibleName ( pCurListViewItem -> text ( 1 ) ); gives me zsh segmentation fault even before GUI opens. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#2785 (comment)> , or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AZGFSNENLIKPEN4HWDOUYNTV26MDTANCNFSM56TLOKXA> . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: ***@***.***>

@BlindRyan

@BlindRyan, to my knowledge, the official build never behaved the way you described . You're talking about the behavior in my custom accessible build.

OK I must’ve been confused I’ve been uninstalling and reinstalling multiple times I also noticed in the three. Nine version there is no sound alert now when somebody enters the server or the room you’re currently in like the accessible build dead I really miss that so I’d like to see that come back as well

…

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2022, at 6:20 PM, chigkim ***@***.***> wrote: @BlindRyan, to my knowledge, the official build never behaved the way you described . You're talking about the behavior in my custom accessible build. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or unsubscribe. You are receiving this because you were mentioned.

It's already in the official build, but the feature is disabled by default. You have to check the sound alert in your user profile to enable it.

@chigkim

Converting to a discussion as the content seems to have wandered. @chigkim could you please raise an issue making it clear what needs changing. Thanks.

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Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue #2785

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Jamulus 3.9 screen reader focus issue #2785

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ann0see commented on Aug 16, 2022

chigkim commented on Aug 16, 2022

BlindRyan commented on Aug 16, 2022

hoffie commented on Aug 16, 2022

BlindRyan commented on Aug 16, 2022

chigkim commented on Aug 16, 2022

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hoffie commented on Aug 16, 2022

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